22.11.2021
Automatic transmission DSG (DSG): why are they switching to robots so rapidly? Horror stories about DSG: real and imaginary problems of the robot, and what to do with them What does a wet gearbox mean.
With the appearance on the automotive market of a new transmission from a car Volkswagen Group and the company LuK - DSG-7, the first problems appeared in its operation.
DSG-7 or DQ200 according to the company's marking is a seven-speed manual transmission equipped with an automated control unit. In the Volkswagen automaker itself, it is called a robotic gearbox. DSG-7 is a younger version of the six-speed DSG6 and their main difference is that the DSG-6 clutch unit is in an oil bath, which significantly reduces overheating and friction of the shafts and gears. The oil volume in the DSG-6 is 4.6 liters versus 1.9 liters in the "dry" DSG-7. DSG boxes have three shafts and they are placed inside the box so that up to the third shaft, which is higher than the rest, the oil in the DSG-7 box can get in a meager amount. In highway traffic conditions, this would be enough, but in urban traffic jams, “dry” gears have a hard time. A top shaft bearing without lubrication will rust and break. According to service specialists, this is one of the main problems that owners of Volkswagen, Audi and Skoda cars equipped with DSG-7 turn to repair shops.
You shouldn't blame VAG (Volkswagen Audi Group) that they released a completely unsuccessful transmission. Problems exist for all gearboxes that are present on the market, and with the number of cars of the automaker that is operated in Russia, the number of calls to the service due to their breakdown also becomes logical. Yet the design of the DSG-7 remains "raw". Or stayed?
Since in 2014, the auto giant announced a complete modernization of the DSG-7 and the correction of all existing problems. Along with this, the additional five-year warranty for cars manufactured after 2014 was also removed. In any case, about technical condition updated DSG we will know only at the beginning of 2016, when the standard two-year Volkswagen warranty in Russia. At the moment, car owners of brand new VAG cars repair cars under warranty from dealers, and they don't care too much about what's wrong with VW's "wonder robot." But after the warranty expires, they may have questions, since complete replacement DSG-7 costs an average of 350-450 thousand rubles. Although it is worth hoping that Volkswagen this time really brought the box to mind. The reason for this modernization was not only the accusations of Russian car owners and the speech of a State Duma deputy about a complete ban on the operation of cars equipped with DSG-7. In 2013, VAG carried out an unprecedented recall of DSG-7 vehicles around the world. A total of 1.6 million vehicles were recalled for repair and software upgrades.
Classic DSG7 problems
We will try to consider the most common problems of a “dry” DSG. What you may encounter while using it.
- Vibration of the car when shifting gears from first to second and vice versa. This is caused by the fact that the clutch discs close too abruptly. The effect is the same as if, on a conventional “mechanics”, the clutch is abruptly released when switching. The error occurs in this case in the mechatronics unit and is “treated” by flashing it or, in extreme cases, replacing it.
- Vibrations in 2nd gear when driving at low speeds. The problem is the lack of a torsional vibration damper on the second clutch. VAG engineers felt that it was enough to install the damper on the first clutch, as the busiest. It has a large friction area, while, like the second, the friction area is reduced. The very design of the DQ200 0AM box does not allow the installation of two torsional vibration dampers - due to the geometry of the box, the entire body will have to be redone. The company LUK, responsible for the creation of the DSG-7, released a clutch with a modified clutch material. Vibrations did decrease, but did not disappear. VAG is trying to fix the problem with a new software (software) update, but the mechatronics will not be able to solve technical problem designs. In any case, the “squabble on the second” will remain with the DSG-7 until the release of the new box.
- Knocks in the checkpoint when driving at low speed. The manufacturer's official explanation is that: “The gearbox contains a large number of densely packed parts. Under certain conditions, vibration of unloaded gears and gearbox parts may occur. Structurally, the amount of oil in this gearbox is relatively small, which contributes to a more intense transmission of sounds from the gearbox to the outside. These noises affect only the acoustic comfort, these sounds do not affect the performance of the gearbox and its resource and are not regarded as a defect. It turns out that you won’t be able to contact the service with this problem, so before buying during a test drive, decide for yourself whether this noise suits you or not.
- Jolts at the beginning of the movement and switching to D, S, M modes. Here the set of reasons is very large. A malfunction may lie both in the clutch unit, and in mechatronics, and in the engine-gearbox link. In any case, a car with involuntary shocks should be diagnosed in the service.
- Mechatronics failures. A number of problems are also called here, but it is usually associated with the software version and vehicle operation. Early models suffered from mechatronic failures caused by software bugs much more frequently. Now most of the problems have been eliminated by constantly updating the “brains” and the electronics behave more or less friendly, but it is not immune from operating errors. The DSG-7 differs from the DSG-6 in that it is placed on middle-class cars with lower requirements for the engine and speed, but based on a comfortable quiet ride. Any racing "chips", such as, for example, a quick start with the brake pressed, can ride on the DSG-6 - an oil bath saves it. For DSG-7, this can cause premature repair.
To sum up the problems described, they all lie in the complex technology of the box. VAG wanted to make the perfect gearbox for everyone and is now paying the price for being too hasty with the transmission upgrade year after year.
Volkswagen's official response or what to expect for car owners
Representatives of Volkswagen Russia did not stay away from the hype around the innovative transmission and commented on the situation with the DSG-7. According to them, since 2012-2013, the double clutch assembly, the mechatronics unit and the mechanical part of the gearbox have been redesigned. Those problems that arose before will remain scary tales for car owners of the new DSG-7. For the most part, according to representatives of VAG in Russia, breakdowns are associated with improper operation of cars with DQ200, including chip tuning of the control unit. VAG also decided to change the oil in the box from synthetic to mineral - at one time this was the reason for the global recall of cars with DSG-7. The replacement will also affect cars in Russia, but in our conditions mineral oil in the transmission does not seem to be the best option.
In any case, the main thing in this statement was the conviction that the car should be serviced only in official repair services. The transmission device is too complicated to trust third-party masters. It is up to the car owner to decide here. Although it is worth considering that Volkswagen sells hundreds of thousands of cars in Russia and repair shops have long been familiar with all the problems of the DSG-7 and how to fix them. You can literally find a car service that is ready to repair or change any part of the transmission from the gear to the mechatronics at your fingertips. It is enough to look on the Internet. Yes, and you will also be offered quite a few ways to repair the DSG-7 with your own hands, but you need to have golden hands for this. Spare parts for the DSG are also not a luxury and it is unlikely that you will have to wait for the right lining within a month.
The difference between official and third-party services is primarily in price. The spread here is great - you can replace the entire DSG-7 for 300 thousand rubles and 450 thousand. The difference is serious and the majority of car owners decide to vote in rubles.
In conclusion, it is worth saying that the DSG-7 also has many advantages, otherwise cars equipped with a “German robot” would not be sold in such quantity. At the same time, car services are crammed with cars not only with the notorious DQ200, but also with torque converter machines, and CVTs, and the usual “mechanics”. There is no perfect transmission, and it's up to you to decide what is closer to your liking. Don't change your mind just because of online reviews.
DSG stands for Direkt Schalt Getrieb, literally translated from German - "Direct Gearbox". This is one of many types of preselective robotic boxes with two clutches.
As you know, a "robot" is a mechanical box, but with automated control. When a gear needs to be shifted, the computer instructs the actuators to disconnect the driven clutch from the drive, thereby separating the engine and gearbox, move the shafts with gears, and then connect the discs back, resuming the process of transmitting torque.
I must say that the computer does not always cope with this operation quickly - often it needs even more time than the driver. About dynamic driving and even more so sports with a conventional robotic box is out of the question.
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Quite another thing is a box with double clutch! The schematic diagram of such a checkpoint was invented by the French engineer Adolf Kegresse. Before World War I, by the way, he worked in the personal garage of Nicholas II and came up with a caterpillar-wheel drive for the royal Packard, but that's a completely different story. In the late 30s, when Kegresse described the principle of the double clutch, the technology did not allow for a prototype, and the design was forgotten until the early 80s. Then the progressive box was tested on the Ford Fiesta, Ford Ranger and Peugeot 205, and then put on racing Audi and Porsche.
How does DSG work?
As can be seen from the diagram, the clutch drive disc, which rotates the motor, is located between two driven discs connected to the box. One disk is connected to the shaft with gears of an odd number of gears (1.3 and further), and the second - to the shaft of even gears (2.4 and further). The shafts of the clutch discs are located on the same axis like a nesting doll - inside each other. When a car with such a box starts, only the “odd” disk is pressed against the drive disk, and movement begins in first gear. At this time, the second gear is switched on on the even row, and when it is necessary to switch up, the “odd” is disconnected from the leading disk and the “even” is instantly attached. While it is running, the third gear is already engaged on the odd row, and so on. Accordingly, switching occurs quickly - faster than any, even the most skilled driver, can physically do. This type of checkpoint is called preselective, from pre- ("before", "in advance") and select ("choice").DSG is by no means the only preselective
In addition to DSG, there are several other types of preselective "robots". For example, Porsche has PDK boxes developed jointly with ZF. Renault, Peugeot, Citroen, BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Ferrari use Getrag boxes, while Fiat has developed its own TCT robot, which is equipped with all Alfa Romeo models, as well as the Dodge Dart. There are also many different dual clutch transmissions for special purposes. For example, a sports version from the manufacturer Oerlikon Graziano for the McLaren 12C supercar or an aggregate designed for heavy agricultural equipment from John Deere Tractors. In general, there are many preselective boxes, and only the Volkswagen DSG has a bad reputation. I wonder why? Largely due to the fact that it was the DSG that was the first of such gearboxes to be used in mass production of cars. But there are subtleties in the design ...
Not all DSGs are the same
There are three types of DSGs. In 2003, the first 6-speed version of the DSG box with the DQ250 index, developed jointly with Borg Warner, was released. It differed in that the dual clutch discs worked in an oil bath. The friction force between the disks was relatively small, and it was a double-edged sword. On the one hand, the clutch could transmit a large torque (up to 350 Nm) to the box with quite moderate wear, and the inclusions were soft. On the other hand, the "intermediary" between the rubbing surfaces in the face of oil provided large losses. In 2008, Volkswagen took a chance and released the DQ200 box, which they made together with LuK. There were seven steps, and the clutch went from wet to dry, like on conventional manual transmissions. The maximum torque of the motor, which can "digest" such a box, has decreased to 250 Nm. It was this version of the Volkswagen preselective that gained fame as an unsuccessful knot. Although losses were minimized here, and the box worked very efficiently, there were problems with comfort and reliability, which we will discuss in more detail below. A little later, two more DSG modifications came out, and wet clutch appeared on both again, and there were seven steps left. In 2008, S-tronic appeared for Audi with a longitudinal engine (it works with a torque of up to 600 Nm), and in 2010, a new DSG for a transverse layout (up to 500 Nm). So, to one degree or another, only the “dry” DSG with seven steps should be feared. All other options for preselective robots work without any complaints.
6-speed DSG option
Photo: volkswagen-media-services.com
Where can you find DSG
Now the Volkswagen concern uses all three versions of the DSG in parallel, as well as S-tronic and PDK. How to identify a car that is equipped with a seven-speed DSG DQ200 with a dry double clutch, which can cause problems in operation? A potentially problematic box was installed on almost the entire the lineup Volkswagen, Seat and Skoda from 2008 to this day. DSG7 was installed and is being installed on relatively weak modifications with engines up to 1.8 liters. With two-liter and larger engines, as well as diesel engines, where the torque is above 250 Nm, they usually connect the old and reliable DSG6 with a wet clutch or even a 6-speed hydromechanical "automatic". The seven-speed wet DSG, as well as the S-tronic, are exclusive to Audi.What problems does the DSG present?
Immediately it is worth mentioning that tens of thousands of drivers drive cars with a seven-speed "robot" and do not complain about anything. However, the proportion of those who are dissatisfied with the purchase is still quite large. What worries them?- Jerks when shifting gears up or down- the most common disadvantage. It is caused by the fact that the dry clutch discs close too abruptly. The effect is about the same if on a car with "mechanics" to throw the clutch pedal when switching.
- Extraneous sounds at work. Clang, rattle and other noises.
- Loss of traction during acceleration. The clutch discs do not engage properly and the car stops responding to pressing the gas pedal. The situation is especially dangerous when overtaking on country roads.
As you know, today automakers offer consumers, taking into account the ever-growing demand for gearboxes of this type. At the same time, the machine can be represented not only by the “classic” hydromechanical automatic transmission, but also by a robot, a variator, and also with two clutches.
Also, the main modes and the performance itself in the cabin in relation to various types of automatic transmissions often practically do not differ. This is done for ease of interaction. In other words, when buying a car, it can be difficult to determine which particular automatic is installed in one case or another, since the automatic transmission lever () , panel and available modes can be the same.
Given the fact that different types of machines have both pros and cons, and also, in some cases, it is important to understand exactly which box is on the machine. Next, we will talk about how to determine whether automatic or DSG, as well as what to look for.
Read in this article
DSG box or automatic: how to determine the type of gearbox
Let's start with the fact that it has established itself as a reliable, hardy and quite maintainable unit. At the same time, many potential owners choose this type of gearbox even taking into account increased fuel consumption and a slight decrease in acceleration dynamics.
As for preselective robots, by combining positive properties and the classic machine.
On the one hand, the production of such a box is cheaper, which reduces the final cost of the car. Also, the driver receives almost imperceptible gear changes, high transmission efficiency, fuel economy and excellent acceleration dynamics.
However, on the other hand, the DSG resource (especially DSG-7) turned out to be noticeably lower (2-3 times) than that of torque converter automatic machines. Also considered a disadvantage is the high cost and complexity of repairing DSGs, the need for nodal replacement of individual expensive elements, difficulties with tuning, etc.
It is for this reason (as a rule, in the secondary market) that cars with DSG are sold worse than those with automatic transmission and even a CVT. The buyers themselves often either refuse to buy, or seek to minimize the price, referring to the possible need for a serious repair of such a box already on runs of 100-150 thousand km.
Naturally, the car seller is not interested in a significant reduction in cost. If you remember that it is difficult to visually distinguish a DSG from an automatic, inexperienced buyers are often deceived, claiming that the car has a conventional automatic transmission, DSG, etc. Adding to the complexity is the fact that some models can be equipped with both a DSG and a conventional automatic transmission.
Even in pursuit of profit or in order to quickly sell a car, in some cases, sellers go even further, changing the automatic transmission selector with the DSG inscription to a simple handle, removing the DSG “nameplate” from the lever, completely tightening the handle with leather, etc.
As a result, especially if there is a lever from a classic automatic, new owners often do not know what kind of transmission is actually installed on their car. So, in order to clearly understand which gearbox the car comes with, you need to be able to distinguish DSG from automatic transmission.
First of all, among the main distinguishing features of the DSG are:
As you can see, with such a large number of different types of automatic transmissions, it is important to consider their features and differences. In practice, you need to be able to distinguish.
The point is that although specified species transmissions are automatic, but they differ from each other both in terms of design and reliability and quality of work. For example, the CVT is the most comfortable, but not suitable for aggressive driving.
Automatic transmission can consume more fuel, while being more reliable. the cheapest, while the box is thoughtful, there may be jerks and dips at the time of gear shifting. As for the DSG, although such a gearbox works no worse than a classic machine, the main disadvantage is the high price and low resource.
Finally, we note that, taking into account the above information, it is necessary to determine exactly which box is on the car, which may result in a refusal to purchase or a reasonable bargain with the seller.
Read also
Differences between a robot box and an automatic transmission: what to look for. How to distinguish a robot from an automaton (visually, in motion). Recommendations.
When Volkswagen introduced the dual-clutch box as an alternative to the classic automatic in 2002, the excitement knew no bounds. It is understandable, a similar solution has already been tried, in particular Porsche. Volkswagen, on the other hand, has created an inexpensive and highly efficient version for conventional production cars. It is thanks to VW that for the first time cars with automatic transmission gears are just as dynamic as the manual transmission versions.
Today DSG deserves a round of applause. But after 10 years on the market, it became clear that this solution is not suitable for everyone. Although the DSG is rated as a very good and thoughtful design, after a while it may require the intervention of a mechanic. This will be expensive, especially if the previous owner of the car did not care about regular oil changes in the box. Moreover, the operating conditions and the quality of care in the past are a big secret.
Story
DSG box(from the English. Dual Shift Gearbox or German. Doppelkupplungsgetriebe) currently has several options that are fundamentally different in design. The first version appeared at the turn of 2002 and 2003. It was a 6-speed DQ250 gearbox, which features a wet clutch, i.e. working in oil. The box is able to handle torque up to 350 Nm.
In 2008, a lighter and more economical 7-speed version of the DQ200 appeared on the market. It is able to digest only 250 Nm of torque. In 2010, the company introduced the DQ500 box, designed on their own. All previous versions helped develop Borg Warner and LUK. The latest modification was adapted for high torques (up to 600 Nm), which made it possible to use it even in commercial vehicles, such as the VW Transporter. Soon the box found its application in small models of the brand. The designers again returned to "wet clutches", but the number of steps remained the same - 7. The DL501 modification is used in Audi cars and is designated S-Tronic.
Reliability
Unlike classic automatics that don't need a clutch or a solid flywheel, a DSG box uses both of these components. The dual-mass flywheel must be reliable and have a resource, as is the case with a manual transmission. Theoretically, it is capable of withstanding at least 150,000 km. In reality, the flywheel can fail after only half the distance measured to it.
As for the clutch, the “wet”, due to better cooling, can even last 250-300 thousand km. Replacing the "dry" may be required already with a run of 150-200 thousand km. But according to statistics, this happens earlier, which is the fault of the management system. Problems are caused by the lack of electrical contact or damage to solenoid valves in mechatronics. The defect, as a rule, manifests itself even before crossing the 100,000 km mark.
Fortunately, in many cases the malfunction can be fixed in specialized workshops. Official services in case of problems with mechatronics change the box to a new one. In ordinary "garages" it will not work to repair the DSG box. Regardless of the type, the box requires special tools. Pre-fabricated to 5 microns, which requires extreme precision in post-repair reassembly.
DSG types
Number of gears: 6.
Maximum engine torque: 350 Nm.
Clutch type: wet.
Exploitation
The box requires regular oil and filter changes. Maintenance is required at least every 60,000 km. Dirty oil can destroy mechatronics.
Application
VW Golf V 1.4 FSI, 1.9 TDI, 2.0 TDI
VW Touran 2.0 TDI
Seat Leon II 2.0 TDI
Skoda Octavia II 2.0 TDI
VW Passat B6 2.0 TDI, 2.0 TFSI.
Number of gears: 7.
Maximum engine torque: 250 Nm.
Clutch type: dry.
Exploitation
The box has two independent oil circuits and the manufacturer does not provide for an oil change. However, independent services recommend changing the fluid.
Application
Skoda Fabia II 1.4TSI
VW Golf V/VI 1.4 TSI
VW Golf VI 1.6 TDI
VW Touran 1.4TSI
Skoda Octavia II 1.8TFSI
VW Passat B6 / B7 1.4 TSI.
Number of gears: 7.
Maximum engine torque: 600 Nm.
Clutch type: wet.
Exploitation
The box has a wet type clutch and requires regular oil changes.
Application
VW Multivan 2.0 TDI
VW Transporter 2.0 TDI
VW Tiguan 2.0TFSI
Typical faults and repair costs
A 6-speed DSG, regardless of type, can travel 200,000 km without any problems. There are many cars that have covered more than 300,000 km.
The dry clutch of a 7-speed gearbox can wear out already by 150-200 thousand km.
The dual mass flywheel usually wears out before the clutch. It is 50% more expensive than a flywheel for mechanical boxes gears.
To repair the box after long runs (over 300,000 km), it may take about $ 1,500-2,000.
DSG in good condition can be purchased for 1000-1500 dollars. However, the number of offers on the secondary market is very limited.
The cost of a new box in the official service is about $ 6,000.
As for the box itself, as a rule, there are malfunctions of the monitoring and control system associated with the operation of the mechatronics and the control module. To repair the control module, you will need about 200-300 dollars. Recovery is possible only in specialized services.
Symptoms of a mechatronics malfunction
Highlighting "PRNDS" on the dashboard and switching the box to "N" mode.
Hard shift into 1st gear.
Hard switching from 3rd to 2nd and from 2nd to 1st, sometimes clicks are clearly audible.
Vibrations in 2nd gear when braking.
Shocks during successive switching.
Feeling a loss of traction when the rpm drops below 2000.
double clutch
DSG 7 clutch.
As a result of friction, dry clutch wears out faster (even up to 150,000 km). The cost of a new clutch (with replacement) is about $ 700, in the official service - about $ 1,300. Wet clutches are more durable. They can travel over 250,000 km. The cost of replacing them is about $1,000.
Mechatronic
Problems arise due to the loss of contact on the board at the soldering points. This is the result of the introduction in 2004 of ecological soldering methods. Specialists remove the module and re-solder. The cost of the service is about $200.
hydraulic block
It is a group of solenoid valves and an oil pressure control circuit. Solenoid valves can fail, which can be replaced. The cause of their malfunction may be metal filings resulting from clutch wear.
dual mass flywheel
Its wear is the most common reason for dismantling the DSG box (sometimes even after 70,000 km). Flywheel durability is reduced by chip tuning and driving at very low revs. It costs more than a flywheel for cars without DSG.
Attention! Regular oil changes are a prerequisite for the correct operation of the gearbox.
As a rule, the filter and oil are changed every 60,000 km in an automated transmission with "wet clutches". For a 6-speed DSG DQ250, you need 5.2 liters. The cost of the service is about $ 200 in the official service and $ 100 in the usual one. The oil must be of a special type designed for DSG boxes.
The manufacturer does not provide for oil changes in boxes with a "dry clutch". However, specialized services still recommend doing this every 60,000 km. The oil in the automatic transmission (1.7 l) is subject to exchange and hydraulic fluid mechatronics. The cost of services is about 90 dollars.
The DSG transmission is a family of preselective gearboxes installed on Volkswagen AG vehicles.
The first DSG was put into production in 2003, starting to be mass-produced on many models.
Since then, robotic gearboxes have been repeatedly changed, new modifications have appeared.
“ Between themselves, they differ in the design of the clutch, the layout relative to the engine, and are also designed to work in tandem with engines that have different volume, torque and type of fuel.
To date, there are the following types of DSG:
- DSG6-02E/0D9 (DQ250)- the only version of the DSG with six steps.
Equipped with a "wet" clutch, designed for front- and all-wheel drive vehicles, with a maximum torque of up to 350 Nm, and a volume of 1.4 - 3.2 liters; - DSG7-0AM/0CW (DQ200)
- the first generation of a seven-speed preselective.
Dry clutches. Designed for use with low power internal combustion engines. Scope - front-wheel drive cars 1.2 -1.8 l, up to 250 Nm; - DSG7-0BT/0BH (DQ500)- 7 steps, "wet" clutch.
They are placed on powerful models with a front or all-wheel drive, and a transverse engine. Adapted to transmit high torque (up to 600 Nm);
DSG7-0B5/0CJ/0CL/0CK (DL501/DL382) - also have seven gears, "wet" clutches, but were developed specifically for cars with a longitudinal engine.
To find out which type of gearbox is installed on your car, just connect the diagnostic tool and read the identification data, or check by VIN in the corresponding directory.
